SESGDL From United States, joined Jan 2001, 2482 posts, RR: 16 Reply 3, posted (2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3312 times:
DL's international route network is not doing too well. It's pretty clear that their domestic system is the thing that is keeping their system afloat. It's strange that DL has been pushing all of this international expansion when their international routes are doing rather poorly compared to other carriers.
WorldTraveler From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4552 posts, RR: 17 Reply 4, posted (2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3293 times:
Why don't you post the domestic as well? You'll find it in the same place where you found this info.
If you did, you would find that, once again, NW and DL have some of the industry's highest domestic profitability and that CO is STILL unprofitable after years. AA and UA didn't win any awards for their domestic system either.
There is no US airline that derives more than 50% of its revenue from int'l operations. While it is absolutely important to be as profitable as possible in every region, it isn't justifiable to lose money on a regular basis on the domestic system and expect to be saved from the int'l operation.
For someone who is quick to call out others when they use statistics for their benefit, I hold you to the level of accountability you want from others.
And since you have 4Q stats, why don't you post the whole year?
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1263 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3214 times:
Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 5): Which carriers offer 3 class service? Is it just AA and UA?
UA has 3-class service on all long haul routes and AA on all 777 longhaul routes, AAs 763s are 2-class. UA and AA also offer three class on UAs P.S.ed 752s and AAs 762 flights on some transcontinental flights.
Panamair From United States, joined Oct 2001, 2825 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3209 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3): It's strange that DL has been pushing all of this international expansion when their international routes are doing rather poorly compared to other carriers.
I'm actually curious as to how they allocate revenues and costs between domestic and international (e.g., when you have smeone flying IAH-ATL-DXB for example - which portion goes to IAH-ATL versus which portion to ATL-DXB) and if that doesn't have some bearing on these numbers. Point is, DL posted middle-of-pack to slightly above average Q4 2007 performance overall systemwide - so if international is truly at the bottom rung, then domestic is performing significantly better than peers. CO is the exact opposite - posting domestic losses every quarter (yes including traditionally strong ones like Q2 and Q3) while posting very strong international every quarter (including traditionally weak ones). Truth for both of these is probably somewhere in between.
Scorpy From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3188 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): Why don't you post the domestic as well? You'll find it in the same place where you found this info.
For someone who is quick to call out others when they use statistics for their benefit, I hold you to the level of accountability you want from others.
And since you have 4Q stats, why don't you post the whole year?
I as it seems many others found the thread interesting sine all the airlines are calling international routes their salvation. Just because it doesn't show delta as the leader doesn't mean its not worth discussing. you don't have to post you know.
Well the title of this thread is "International" profitability and was meant to highlight individual carrier performance as there has been such a focus and interest in international flying these last few years.
However since you asked here were domestic numbers for the quarter.
Domestic
American
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.86
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.67
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.81
Yield per RPM(cents):12.51
Continental
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.80
Operating Expense Per ASM:17.40
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.60
Yield per RPM(cents):12.81
Delta
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.26
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.99
Profit/Loss per ASM:0.28
Yield per RPM(cents):12.64
Northwest
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.73
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.73
Profit/Loss per ASM:1.00
Yield per RPM(cents):13.51
United
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.49
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.56
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.07
Yield per RPM(cents):13.14
US Airways
Operating Revenue Per ASM:16.16
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.70
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.54
Yield per RPM(cents):13.40
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): NW and DL have some of the industry's highest domestic profitability
Kinda ironic ha especially in Delta's case? With such a focus on international growth its the domestic flying bringing the bacon home.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): And since you have 4Q stats, why don't you post the whole year?
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): For someone who is quick to call out others when they use statistics for their benefit, I hold you to the level of accountability you want from others.
Absolutely, and like they say, liars can figure, however figures dont lie.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
WorldTraveler From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4552 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2920 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9): American
Operating Revenue Per ASM:12.86
Operating Expense Per ASM:13.67
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.81
Yield per RPM(cents):12.51
Continental
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.80
Operating Expense Per ASM:17.40
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.60
Yield per RPM(cents):12.81
Delta
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.26
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.99
Profit/Loss per ASM:0.28
Yield per RPM(cents):12.64
Northwest
Operating Revenue Per ASM:17.73
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.73
Profit/Loss per ASM:1.00
Yield per RPM(cents):13.51
United
Operating Revenue Per ASM:15.49
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.56
Profit/Loss per ASM:-1.07
Yield per RPM(cents):13.14
US Airways
Operating Revenue Per ASM:16.16
Operating Expense Per ASM:16.70
Profit/Loss per ASM:-0.54
Yield per RPM(cents):13.40
thank you for your careful handling of ALL the facts. As you can see, only DL and NW reported a profit on their domestic systems during 4Q07.
This isn't just about doing something that makes DL or NW or any carrier look good. It's about balance.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that CO has some of the best margins on its int'l network in the industry; its Latin and transtatlantic margins are always at the top. But CO doesn't just run an int'l route network and its stockholders expect it to manage all of its network to the highest profitability standards and DL and NW doesn't just operate a domestic network either; all must be operated for profitability of all of their networks. Picking one part out as if it is sacrosanct is not indicative of what investors or management will do. Any serious a.netters should hold themselves to the same standard.
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1263 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2891 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10): DL and NW doesn't just operate a domestic network either; all must be operated for profitability of all of their networks. Picking one part out as if it is sacrosanct is not indicative of what investors or management will do.
So holding DL to that standard as well, why does DL continue to throw international capacity overseas when clearly based off the numbers posted on here, DLs international network is not consistently profitable and when it is does not lead the pack especially across the Atlantic where DL is the dominate carrier. I'm not singling out DL as the only carrier with issues overseas and it's great that DL has a profitable domestic network (I hope that UA AA and CO can figure out how to make theres work as well as DLs does) I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on how DL is going to fix its overseas issues.
NorthwestEWR From United States, joined Oct 2004, 379 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2884 times:
Interesting that Northwest is consistently stronger than Delta in ALL it's markets except the Pacific where Northwest runs a huge network and DL a tiny one.
Guess it's true... Delta really does need Northwest more than Northwest needs Delta.
PHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States, joined Feb 2008, 82 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2868 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10): Picking one part out as if it is sacrosanct is not indicative of what investors or management will do. Any serious a.netters should hold themselves to the same standard.
The title of the thread was "International Route Profitability". The information was presented as being about international routes, and wasn't trying to say that this was indicative of the performance of the entire airline. Most people like to know international profitability...since it is talked about so often. No where did the poster bring in investors or management...jus those numbers. Don't get all bent out of shape when your beloved isn't ranked #1 in the thread. When someone posts a thread about On-Time performance do they automatically have to post every other metric available like baggage and complaints. Its there if you want it...but if the thread title says "blank" and the content of the thread is only claiming to represent the "blank" of the carrier and making no pretenses about other things....then deal with it. Get a life. You act like if someone says something bad about Delta that they just killed your dog. Relax
PavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 607 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2702 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): Why don't you post the domestic as well? You'll find it in the same place where you found this info.
If you did, you would find that, once again, NW and DL have some of the industry's highest domestic profitability and that CO is STILL unprofitable after years. AA and UA didn't win any awards for their domestic system either.
There is no US airline that derives more than 50% of its revenue from int'l operations. While it is absolutely important to be as profitable as possible in every region, it isn't justifiable to lose money on a regular basis on the domestic system and expect to be saved from the int'l operation.
For someone who is quick to call out others when they use statistics for their benefit, I hold you to the level of accountability you want from others.
And since you have 4Q stats, why don't you post the whole year?
Why didn't you start your own fewkin thread instead of calling out the OP for some perceived slight?
You and the OP clearly have some sort of previous history but he takes the high road here and you come off looking like a Ricardhead.
I found the topic to be of interest and others obviously did as well. No need to make this thread into some silly pissing contest because your favorite airline doesn't come out on top.
One thing that would be of interest related to this thread would be non-US carriers perfomance on similar segments.ie British Airways to the US, JAL to the US and JJ to the US.
Sac From United States, joined Feb 2006, 81 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2601 times:
Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 14): Why didn't you start your own fewkin thread instead of calling out the OP for some perceived slight?
You and the OP clearly have some sort of previous history but he takes the high road here and you come off looking like a Ricardhead.
I found the topic to be of interest and others obviously did as well. No need to make this thread into some silly pissing contest because your favorite airline doesn't come out on top.
Thankyou, you can never win when it comes to any topic when WorldTraveler and the subject of Delta get involved! He will hammer it into the ground. But, it his opinion, and he is allowed to post it.
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 2034 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2075 times:
Quoting Sac (Reply 15): Thankyou, you can never win when it comes to any topic when WorldTraveler and the subject of Delta get involved! He will hammer it into the ground. But, it his opinion, and he is allowed to post it.
Yes, even when we his opinion has nothing to do with the thread itself. It really does get so boring sometimes.
Not sure what the history is here but either way, LAXintl, thanks for starting the thread, the info you posted at the outset was very interesting, even if some other people felt you "failed" because you did not provide other information on a totally different topic that had nothing to do with it whatsoever and did not paint DL in all its glory!
Farnborough24 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1512 times:
Hi all-I get the gist of the figures on show, but just for a fuller understanding, can somebody quickly outline what the different figures/acronyms mean? Essentially, what are ASM/RPM? The rest I can see for myself haha, just at the moment RPM means revolutions per minute to me...Thanks all.
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